- I don't know if you've heard of the matching law before or not, it's complicated?
It's mathematical, it's almost impossible to read about?
The guys, they write this stuff, they're not writing for you and me, they're geeks?
They're writing for each other?
They don't care if we understand it or not?
Good stuff, almost impossible to read?
So the matching law sounds complicated, it's more complicated than it sounds in the writing?
When you boil it down it's not that complicated but I, I'll talk about the geeks just for a second?
There's a population in the world and it is grouped together as a function of, of two characteristics?
One is deficient social competence and the other is capacity to contribute to the common good and there are four categories inside this population?
At the very bottom are dorks?
They have deficient social competence and they have minimal capacity to contribute to the common good?
Above them are dweebs?
They have deficient social competence, modest capacity to contribute to the common good?
Above them are nerds, they have deficient social confidence and moderate capacity to contribute to the common good and then above them are geeks?
Geeks have deficient social competence and profound capacity to contribute to the common good?
It's just that a geek is an individual who has a personality that lacks a marketing function?
So like a geek in high school won't have any friends until they meet somebody who has friends who recognizes their capacity to contribute and then that person makes the geek his or her friend and now the geek's got friends?
They didn't make the friends, they don't know how to do that?
The friends were made for them?
Who are some geeks?
Well Steve Jobs was a geek?
Deficient social competence, extraordinary capacity to contribute to the common good?
And what he did was he gathered together a bunch of fellow geeks and they invented all the stuff we now know of as Apple but he also spent a lot of, a lot of money on marketing?
So everybody knows what Apple is and what it does and Bill Gates, total geek?
Deficient social competence, extraordinary capacity to contribute to the common good?
What did he do?
Gathered together a bunch of geeks?
They put together what we now know of as Microsoft and he spent a ton of money marketing the stuff, getting people that know how to market?
Another geek, B?
Total geek, deficient social competence, profound capacity to contribute to the common good?
What did he do?
He gathered together a bunch of other geeks?
Didn't spend a red cent on marketing?
And that is, mostly people don't know what he did or what behavioral analysis is all about because it hasn't been marketed very well?
It just, it's powerful, it's the most powerful thing to come along forever?
But it just has been marketed so badly and the geeks are not gonna market it for us?
I am marketing right now, this is marketing?
This is one of the reasons I do what I do is I'm trying to get the idea across to people?
So God bless the geeks?
Without them we got nothing?
Gotta appreciate the products that they give us because we aren't inventing the stuff?
They are, we're just marketing the stuff?
I'm marketing, you're using, they're inventing?
We gotta have them but we can't count on them to communicate with us in a way that we really easily understand?
We have to do the translation ourselves?
So the matching law which I'm now gonna translate is pretty darn simple?
Basically it's a theory of choice?
Why are they doing this rather than that?
You ever had that question?
Yeah, we have that question about everybody that bothers us?
Why are they doing that, why don't they do this?
Why are they doing the thing that bothers me, why don't they do the thing that pleases me?
You ever had that question?
Like did you have it like last night?
You know, or yesterday afternoon?
It comes up all the time?
Well we tend to answer the thing using those old ideas?
Those aren't answers?
The matching law provides an answer?
The answer is they are doing that because it more reliably produces a carrot in an easier way than that?
That's all, it is a more reliable, easier way to get a carrot and that's why they're doing it and if you want them to do the other thing, then you have to set it up so that it more reliably produces carrots in an easier fashion than the thing you don't want them to do?
And if you can't accomplish that it's not gonna happen?
So this is the question I get?
Why is he playing video games all the time and not doing his homework?
Well let's just pause for a second, think about this?
And answer the question, what is probability of getting carrots from playing video games?
Well it's 100%?
How much effort is involved?
All they have to do is the turn the thing on and there's a scantily clad woman with a machine gun?
This is a 10-year-old boy, what could be better?
Just flip the switch and there it is?
And then they go on doing battle, even better?
They score points, even better?
They win levels, even better?
They compete with friends, even better?
They are communicating and connecting with people in Asia?
It just doesn't, it gets better and better and better?
Well let's go over to the homework?
What's the probability of the kid getting a carrot doing their homework?
Just right around zero?
How much effort is involved getting anything?
The people who design video games are geniuses at the carrot stick ratio?
So what we need to do is get the guys who design the homework or excuse me, to get the guys who design the video games and have them design the homework?
And get the people who design the homework and have them design the video games and pretty soon we'll have the opposite?
Kids will be doing their homework obsessively and they won't be doing any video game playing?
You know who understands this exceptionally well?
Las Vegas, they got it down baby?
You know what they can get a person to do?
An intelligent person with money in the bank and a spouse at home, children and a good job?
For hours, just that?
Bur we can't get a kid to write on a piece of paper when we're hovering over them?
They can get a perfectly accomplished human being to do just that for hours and while they're doing it, they're losing money?
Inhaling cigarette smoke, why would they do that?
Because there's carrots everywhere and the game that they're playing is producing carrots on a schedule that's habit-forming?
That schedule is available to all, it's just that some people decide to use it and some people decide that it really isn't worth it or it doesn't make sense or there's a better way to manage human behavior?
So in the matching law, you always have an answer?
You don't need to default to thinking the reason they're doing it is 'cause they're a jerk?
The reason they're doing it is because they're selfish?
The reason they're doing it is because they're narcissistic?
The reason they're doing it is because they're just like their mother?
Or what, I mean?
If I can get the people that bring their marriages to me to think in terms of the matching law I can really help them?
Now it's hard because they don't wanna think that way, they're mad and when they're mad they tend to default to the old ideas and if they don't stick with the old ideas they feel like they're letting you know who off the hook and after all the things you know who has done, I don't feel like they should get away without a penalty?
I'm just wanting to save the marriage?
I'm not wanting to you know, make sure somebody atones for their sins?
So let's see what I've got here?
Yeah, so one of the ways to think is how can you take the appropriate behavior and make it more likely to pay off with less effort than the inappropriate behavior?
So this is a grizzly bear and in this slide there are two sources of reinforcement in the form of food?
One involves the fish and one involves the photographers?
So the probability of the bear getting reinforcement of the food when he goes fishing is 100% with minimal effort?
The probability of the bear getting reinforcement in the form of food by going after the photographers is not 100% and there's a lot of effort involved?
So the photographers in this photograph that you can't see are very safe?
Because the bear is not going to misbehave, it doesn't make sense for the bear to misbehave?
The matching law would predict the bear won't misbehave?
The matching law will predict the bear's behavior perfectly?
There are two sources of food in this slide, they're not what you think they are?
You can't see one of them?
So one source of food is obviously photographers, the other source of food are the huckleberry-laden bushes behind the bear?
The probability of the bear getting reinforcement in the form of food by going huckleberrying is 100% with minimal effort?
The probability of the bear getting reinforcement in the form of food by going after the photographers is not 100%, there'd be a lot of effort involved?
These folks are really, really safe unless they get between the bear and the huckleberries?
Then everything changes?
There's two sources of food in this slide?
One is the fisherman and one is the trout that just jumped in the middle of that stream?
The probability of a bear obtaining reinforcement in the form of food by going trout fishing is zero?
Bears can't catch trout?
The probability of the bear getting reinforcement in the form of food by going after the fisherman's pretty high and there isn't gonna be a hell of a lot of effort involved?
That fisherman is in a lot of trouble?
Now I don't know in this slide if there's a guy on a hill up there with a 30 odd six, I hope there is, because if there isn't, well that'd be his last fishing day?
So the key thing here is make it easier for the kid engaging in inappropriate behavior to get carrots using appropriate behavior?
Go out of your way to make it easy and you'll tend to see them veer that direction?
They're heading towards carrots and they don't want to spend a lot of effort getting them?
Am I making sense here?
So here's some ways that we've done it?
There's no food by the way, there's no reinforcement in the form of food for us like there was this morning?
I'm not good about breaks 'cause I can yap on forever?
If you absolutely need to have a break, somebody let me know?
Otherwise I'm just keep on talking till I'm done?
I want to get us done by four?
So I'm leaving it up to somebody if they wanna have everybody have a break?
So one kid that we work with, a type of kid is the socially obnoxious kid, a rejected kid?
And they tend to engage in inappropriate behavior in order to get attention, that's their carrot?
They get negative attention but they want attention of any sort, negative attention in the context of nothing is a positive and so it's a reinforcer?
So what we do is we come in and we make it easier for them to get positive attention?
Make it very easy for them to get positive attention?
I got this idea from a guy named Ken Kesey who's now deceased but he used to be a very, very prominent American citizen who was responsible for lots of things?
Number one of which was introducing LSD to the United States in a very popular fashion?
Number two, discovering a band called the Grateful Dead and introducing them to the United States and number three, discovering a band of motorcyclists called the Hells Angels and introducing them to the United States?
He also wrote a book called "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest", several of his own books were written about him?
One involved a story about him and his merry van of pranksters driving that bus which is now in The Smithsonian Institute across America from La Honda, California to Mills County New York in order to discover America and along the way according to the novel written about it, the biography written about him people got really obnoxious from time to time on the bus and everybody else wanna kick him off?
Kesey said no we're not doing that?
We're gonna take the obnoxious person and we're gonna feed the hungry bee, what's he called it?
Feeding the hungry bee which meant we're gonna love bomb the obnoxious person and bring them out of their funk?
In other words we're gonna make it really easy for them to get a lot of love on our bus and it worked?
And so we have adopted that method and we go after socially rejected kids using positive peer reporting?
We select a child, not easy, not hard to select?
We make it seem like a random drawing, got the names of kids in a hit, we draw out one name, that gets to be the special kid?
The thing the kids don't know is all the names in the hat are the same name 'cause we got the rejected kid, we know who it is and then they win and when they win that means the other kids now have an assignment?
And that is to watch them throughout the course of the school day and catch them in the act of doing anything appropriate, make note of it mentally and then at the end of study hall, raise their hands and report to the teacher out loud and the kid is sitting there listening to all this good stuff?
So we make it really easy for the kid to get the carrots and they're getting carrots for appropriate behavior?
We're not just passing it off for nothing?
And what we get is a change in their social interactional ratio that begins to dramatically favor the carrot and a change in their social status inside the class?
Just, I'm not gonna go over these data?
They basically say what I just said and we even get a substantial decrease in their misbehavior on a global basis?
Let's go to interactional ratios?
All relationships have an interactional ratio?
I mentioned this this morning?
Marriages are studied by Gottman?
What he's shown is if a interactional ratio in a marriage is five to one, carrot over stick, pleasant over unpleasant, the marriage is safeguarded against all the threats to marriage that we know of?
If it falls down below one to one the probability of divorce, very, very high and kids will divorce us so to speak?
Not legally but they will divorce their teachers, divorce their classrooms?
The autistic kids that you work with will divorce everybody outside of their family because of the unpleasantness in the relationship?
So we wanna, we wanna do what we can to increase that ratio?
I do it with couples, I've tried to find lots of ways to do that with couples?
You can do it with kids, we've done it with kids?
One involves catching them being good more often?
I mentioned the tucked in shirt this morning?
Making eye contact, inhibiting?
When they inhibit, inhibiting is hard to see?
It's easy to see when they do the thing they're not supposed to do, it's hard to see them not doing it, they inhibit?
You have to watch for inhibition and catch it and then deliver a carrot when you see it?
And then manipulate, I don't know, if you got a reward system of some sort you manipulate it so that they get five rewards or more for every instance of a fine?
And so we did that with some really tough kids at Boys Town?
I took their point fine or point award to point fine ratios and just doubled them?
So I had the family teachers double the number of rewards for every fine that they were using and got dramatic results across some really, really tough kids?
Anyway, so now what's the implication for you guys?
Recognize there is a ratio, recognize that when the ratio is favored by the stick you're probably gonna get symptoms?
Recognize also that you do have the power to change that ratio so the carrot favors it?
When the carrot favors it then behavior is likely to change?
How do you change the ratio?
I don't know of your circumstances, I don't know where the carrots are but they're there, somewhere and there's always very, approval, acceptance and appreciation in various forms?
And there's the stickers, stars and stuff and then if that doesn't work you can always get heroin on the street?
So response disequilibrium theory?
This is again geeks right, clearly a geek title?
I didn't know what it meant?
I read the paper multiple times before I finally figured it out but it involves three different approaches to changing behavior?
One was the old Premack principle?
Basically his position was Grandma's Rule?
You take a high frequency behavior and you can use it to reinforce a low frequency behavior?
I mentioned that this morning?
Take their compulsions, their stereotypical behaviors, those are high frequency you can use those, access to those to reinforce low frequency behavior?
Grandma's Rule was first your, first your vegetables, then your dessert?
You know, dessert high frequency?
Vegetables, low frequency?
Then along comes a, Allison and Timberlake they said well no, no it's not really the frequency of the behavior, it's the baseline rate?
So deprive the person of the, so that their behavior falls below a certain baseline rate, it will become reinforcing?
Some variation on telling the kid they can't do something means they wanna do it now?
Preventing them from doing it means they wanna do it more, like that?
Depriving a person of water for an extended period of time turns water into a pretty valuable substance?
There's lots and lots of substances like that?
And the response disequilibrium posits that there's a natural, ideal amount of all that and if a person is restricted from obtaining that ideal amount then whatever it is will acquire reinforcing functions?
If we can train them so they get more of the baseline amount, it'll acquire punishing functions?
I know that's a little complicated, trying to think of a realistic example?
This one's tricky?
Is it safe to say that most of us have been on the losing end of a relationship at least once in our life where we became a little obsessive over a partner?
Is that safe to say?
Where we wanted more time than they wanted?
We wanted more time with them than they wanted with us?
Or am I the only one?
Am I the only one who's ever been dumped?
What a sad tale I have to tell?
I wish I could only tell it once but there, actually it was twice?
I remember it well because as access became limited my desire for access became unlimited?
I didn't know then what I know now which is, my partner had an ideal amount of time she wanted to spend with me?
I had an ideal amount of time I wanted to spend with her and the two times were different?
And so I got less than I wanted, so my desire went up?
She got more than she wanted so her desire went down?
So we're working at cross purposes, you follow what I'm saying?
And I try to point this out to the people that now see me who are having similar problems?
It's like look buddy, I know what you want?
I know how you're trying to get it and in your attempt to try and get it you're actually losing access?
If you could just pull back a little bit until she gets less than she wants, she'll call you or text you?
But if you keep pushing, she's just gonna keep backing away, am I making sense here?
That's kind of the essence of the disequilibrium principle?
But my standard advice is this?
Look buddy, take less than you want, give less than she wants?
That way you won't necessarily interfere with desire on either side?
Now they don't follow my advice very often?
They usually take more rather than less and they give more than they should and pretty soon they burn their relationship out but I'm merely taking this principle and I'm using it in lots of areas of my clinical practice and all I want you to think about is if you deprive people of an activity so it falls below the level of it they ordinarily have, they're gonna wanna do it more?
If you push them so they have to do it more, they're gonna wanna do it less?
And you can drive that principle into lots of things that you do in your professional and personal life?
I hope I'm making sense still?
So I'll give you one, here's an application?
I don't know if this is true in Canada but in, in the United States we've got this toy inflation?
Like kids have way, way, way, way, way, I could, way, way, way, way, way more toys than they need?
And way more access to stuff than they should have?
So they have abundant, free access to all their electronic stuff?
You know parents are saying why won't they do their homework?
Well when they come home, they get free access to their electronic stuff, why would they do their homework?
So, I'm trying to get them to restrict access to the electronic stuff until the homework is done?
That way they get the homework done, they've driven up the value of the electronic stuff and now they can use that to reinforce doing homework?
Sometimes it falls on deaf ears?
Another commodity involves bedtime?
So I do my evaluation?
Parents come to see me, I do an intake?
I do a typical day, I always start with bedtime?
And my first question is, what is the bedtime?
And what I get, what I always get is a theory?
I don't get the actual bedtime?
I get a theory about bedtime and usually the theory starts out with what we'd like it to be?
Okay so what you'd like it to be is eight?
When is it, let's narrow that down?
Wow, that's about 10?
Okay, so I know something?
They want eight, they can live with 10?
They can live with 10, how do I know that?
They're living with 10 but they told me they want eight?
So there's a two hour gap in there?
So we force the kids to go to bed at eight now but we still have that two hour gap to work with and because we've deprived kids from getting that two hour gap the value of those two hours is skyrocketing and we can carve that up into 15 minute blocks and use them for reinforcers, you know what I'm saying?
You can use this principle to create a lot of reinforcing stuff that's right in front of the people you're working with not buying anything at the store?
You could do the same thing with their cellphone?
You could do the same thing with their radio?
You could do the same thing with some of their activities, even the stereotypical activities?
You inhibit access, drive up the value, use the product that you've created to reinforce something that they heretofore haven't wanted to do, they're more likely to wanna do it?
Toy rotation, I went to see my neighbors a couple of weeks ago?
They got a three-year-old and a five-year-old?
Middle class, upper middle class family?
Walk in the kitchen?
I couldn't believe what I saw?
You know, I don't have kids maybe I don't know how this thing goes but I couldn't see the surface of their floors?
Like they had a carpet, I couldn't see a fiber on that carpet?
There's two feet of toys everywhere?
You know it was like Christ walking on water except I'm walking on toys?
And obviously the kids have no interest in these toys 'cause there they lay?
They have free access to all those toys and as a result their value goes down?
What I'm, I don't recommend anything to them, they didn't ask me for advice?
I don't give people advice they haven't asked for?
But what I recommend for other folks that do come to see me is, divide the toys up into daily boxes?
You know Monday through Sunday and so on Monday they get to play with the Monday toys?
Then put them up and on Tuesday, play with the Tuesday toys and rotate and that way they won't have had access to any of the toys for a whole week and their value goes up and the expense needed to buy new toys go down?
Am I making sense here?
It's just using that same principle?
Time-based grounding, we go the other way?
So we got this principle they use, the practice they use in the United States?
It doesn't make any sense to me, it never has but everybody uses it, called grounding?
Have you heard of it before?
Time-based grounding and parents tend to use it when they're really PO'd?
So they you know, like give these huge sentences?
You're grounded till you're 18?
Like now they're gonna live with a kid, kid's only 12?
You've gotta live with this poor, suffering kid for six years while he waits out his time?
And what they've done is taken a commodity called freedom to do what you want from the kid?
Deprived him of that commodity and as a result driven up its value until it's skyrocketed, not to heroin level but almost and what can the kid do to get it back?
Nothing, that's what time-based grounding is?
Just wait out your time?
Well they're not gonna wait out their time 'cause there is some stuff they can do to get it back, just nothing appropriate?
But they can do inappropriate stuff to get it back and that's what they do?
They sneak out, they lie, they wheedle, they become obnoxious?
They start sobbing uncontrollably to act like they're depressed?
They'll do a whole bunch of unpleasant, inappropriate stuff to get their freedom back and it's been driven up by the procedure itself?
So what we use instead and I recommend for you is, task-based grounding?
Make up three by five notebook cards with jobs on them, here's sample jobs?
Kid does something wrong, dole out some jobs?
If it's just a little thing like they mouth off in the car, give them a job?
If they snuck out give them the whole deck?
And they are grounded until the jobs are done?
Entirely up to them how much time they wanna take doing this?
I recommend menial jobs that aren't necessarily for the running of the home because you have to let them go undone for awhile?
So you don't want the dishes to be part of the deal?
But grout, perfect job?
Wheels on the car, another perfect job?
Windows in the car, a perfect job?
Any window in the house, perfect job and so on?
Rules for the kids?
Basically you get to do nothing other than your homework, your extracurricular activities, you're part of a club and school?
Other than that you're totally grounded?
No electronic and entertainment?
For the parents here's the rule?
Zip it, just zip it?
There's no need to remind the kid of the rules?
There's no need to go over how they need to get their freedom?
Just let the contingency operate?
Let's go to behavioral momentum on?
I'm moving along fairly quickly, I wanna get us to four with everything intact?
Maybe, maybe a little earlier if possible?
So behavioral momentum, have you heard of that before?
You have successfully used it whether you know so or not?
So it's based on Newton's Second Law of Movement, of Motion which is you take two objects, they're moving at the same speed?
You apply an external force to get them to slow down?
The larger of the two objects will take longer to slow down because it has more mass and thus more momentum?
You can think the same way about behavior?
Take two behaviors that have the same rate and you apply an external force to slow them down like extinction and the one with greater behavioral mass will take longer to slow down?
So now what's behavioral mass?
Well it's just density of reinforcement, that's all?
It's the behavior that has the greatest history of producing carrots and the greatest likelihood of continuing to produce carrots?
That one takes longer to slow down than one that has a lesser history?
That's fundamentally it?
A guy named Bud Mase, a friend of mine studied this and he found a way to work with it and test it using commands?
And what he showed was you can build up momentum by issuing high probability commands and you issue enough of them, then you can drop in a low probability command and get it followed?
If you start off with a high probability command, you probably won't get it followed?
I'll give you a couple of examples?
The first one I'll give you is what I call behavioral foreplay?
'Cause that's what behavioral momentum is, it's behavioral foreplay?
Now I think you all understand foreplay?
Let's talk about a seducer?
So let's say there's a seducer and he's got, I'm gonna make it a male?
Could be a female but I'm gonna make it a male?
He's got his eye on a seducee?
Doesn't know her, never met her before but he's interested in her and so he walks up and says, will you sleep with me?
What are the, what are the chances?
Would you call that a low probability request?
Is there a chance on God's green earth unless she's a lady of the night that she's gonna say yes?
Why yes, thank you for asking I've been standing here?
No it's not gonna happen?
It's not gonna happen under any circumstances but let's say the guy is a great seducer?
Well he's not gonna start there?
He's gonna be way, way, way, way away from there but he's gonna start with something?
You know, can I talk to you for a second, you look interesting to me, do you mind?
Like a high probability request?
Can I just talk to you for a minute?
Or maybe he's gonna introduce himself and then ask her her name?
A very high probability request?
Something that she's done thousands of times, there's no harm in doing it now and he's gonna inch his way forward?
Increasing the amount of the request as he goes along until, and that day may not come for like months, until it's a foregone conclusion, he doesn't even have to ask?
You follow what I'm saying?
He's building up momentum?
It's just that when they talk about it in X-rated novels they don't call it momentum, 'cause that's not a very sexy word but it's the same thing?
These principles apply to everything?
So I call behavioral momentum behavioral foreplay?
You start off slow and easy?
So we got this toy room in the clinic where I work?
We park the kids there while we're working with the parents?
The kids are in there, they throw toys all over the place?
Then we go in with the parents after we're done, parents look at what they've done to the toy room?
Parents go pick these toys up, clean this room up and the kids don't do it?
I mean number one, they're not there because they do as they're told?
And number two, that's a kid variation on the theme of will you sleep with me?
Same level, not gonna happen?
Clean this up, what?
Speak to me in English?
I mean there's not gonna, they don't do a thing?
They just stare at their parents?
I say can I do this, watch how I do this and I do behavioral foreplay?
And so I just get down on their level and I go honey, can you do me a favor?
Could you hand me that toy right there?
And I go, oh you're a big helper?
Would you get me that other one right there?
Yeah that one, thatta girl?
Here you go, there you go, thank you?
Now can I have that one right there?
Attagirl, now honey just take these and put them in that basket right there?
Attagirl, oh it's so good?
Yeah you terrific helper?
Yeah would you get some of those blocks over there?
Yeah just put them in this canvas there?
Attagirl, oh you are a lot of help here?
Would you get those books that you took down, yeah put them on that shelf?
Okay hon, now will you go out and wash my car?
I mean, like I get the room cleaned up?
Eventually I get to clean up the rest of this room but I'm building up, it's behavioral foreplay, you follow what I'm saying?
You start off with a very high probability request or command and then build on that over time?
It's like, I mentioned, this is you know, you use momentum to get out from being overwhelmed?
You know, start something you can finish, very small thing?
Keep starting stuff you can finish until you build up enough momentum to start something big?
So one of the problems, one of the things we have to deal with with behavior momentum is resistance to extinction?
And momentum provides resistance to extinction if there's a lot of it?
There's also something that presides resistance to extinction and that is any stimuli in the environment that signal the availability of reinforcement will keep the person going because they can see the reinforcement and have the idea that they can get it if they just keep after it?
So they keep on trying?
So let me, first of all?
Something to know about extinction and I know you've heard of the process before?
It always works, it can't not work?
It's kind of the equivalent of saying we deprive a human being of air and they can still live?
No, I mean you take air away they need it for survival and you take the life support system away from a behavior which is extinction, it will die?
It's just difficult to implement, that's all?
Very difficult to implement but if you implement it successfully the behavior will die out?
So anyway, I'm saying that resistance to extinction is something that we have to deal with and it's often a function of stimuli that suggests the availability of reinforcement?
So this is a set of stimuli, called a black negligee?
We're just talking about my house here?
We're not talking about your house?
I don't know what happens at your house and I don't wanna know?
But at my house there is a lot of resistance to extinction of amorous and romantic responses exhibited by me?
In the presence of the set of stimulus conditions called the black negligee?
Why so much resistance to extinction?
Because the black negligee signals the availability of reinforcement?
Am I communicating here?
Well let's try this?
Here's a set of?
(audience laughs) See under these conditions, called the flannel nightgown there is no resistance to extinction because it signals the absolute unavailability of reinforcement?
So I wanna talk about timeout now?
I know how you feel about timeout?
Not relevant for your kids probably?
You know because they don't care about attention that much?
See that's the assumption that attention's a reinforcer and it can be?
But it's not the reinforcer I'm interested in and the reinforcer I'm interested in is definitely a reinforcer for the kids you work with?
So first of all, timeout is an extinction procedure?
We're putting reinforcement on extinction?
And we are depriving them of attention?
We're depriving them of something much more powerful than attention?
See for me, timeout basically involves there's nothing going on in your life and there isn't anything on God's green earth you can do about it?
So that's what I'm taking away, sense of control and sense of control is a reinforcer for all human beings?
And sense of control is definitely a reinforcer for persons on the spectrum, perhaps more so than you and I?
And I strip them of that and that hurts?
Once a person loses their sense of control, they suffer in a way that suggests almost like something has died because part of their identity is now dying on the vine?
Because our identities require sense of control in our lives?
And so they tend to exhibit an extinction burst when you're first teaching a good timeout that resembles Kubler-Ross's stages of death?
You know with denial, anger, bargaining depression and acceptance?
So first stage is denial?
You don't put me in timeout, I put you in timeout?
Or you know, I like timeout I needed a break, I've had a busy day?
Got a chance to get a load off my feet, thanks a bunch?
Parents respond to this sometimes?
When they respond that response is a set of stimuli signaling the availability of reinforcement?
What it signals is that sense of control has been restored because the kid is being responded to them you follow what I'm saying?
And their response basically involve, wait it just doesn't, it doesn't even bother him and I, he needs to be bothered because he really screwed up and this isn't bothering him at all and this is nothing?
Get the stick with the nail in the end of it and let's use that?
I mean if you just bear with me here you'll see that it is going to bother?
It definitely is going to bother, we're just at a stage here?
'Cause they're gonna go to anger if we just stick with them long enough, so?
Now you mothers?
So let's say this child lived in your body for nine months hanging upside down, peaceful, they came out loving and you lavished him with all that you had and fed him using your body and gave up professional opportunities to do so and then he gives you the finger, can you ignore that?
You follow what I'm saying?
Or you're a religious family, this is not a religious gesture?
And it may not fit in with your home values?
So can you ignore that?
See I gotta have them ignore that?
If they respond, their response is to set a stimuli signaling the availability of reinforcement which is the restoration of sense of control?
You follow what I'm saying?
You see how difficult this is?
Timeout done well is really difficult?
Very rarely is done well, so we go through that stage?
Then we get bargaining and this is everything they wanted to hear mom and dad?
They're being promised you know, it's whatever, whatever the Devil promised the Lord when he was in the desert for 40 days, this kid's going beyond that?
All this and more shall be yours if you just let me up?
Basically to promise to be good, I'll be good, I'll be good, I promise I'll be good?
Let's you know, they're not making a promise they intend to keep?
They're engaging in the behavior to reestablish control of the situation, that's all that is, it needs to be ignored?
Then they grieve the loss?
What, the loss of sense of control?
They're grieving it, they've tried everything they got, they got nothing, now they're crying?
Now they're pathetic but in an appealing sort of a way and parents kind of wanna get in there and rescue this?
I taught my sister how to do timeout when my nephew was three and we had to do it over the phone?
You know 'cause I was in Kansas City and she was in Billings, Montana?
And now he graduated from Harvard last year so he's doing fine?
We didn't like damage him but I can hear him in the background and here's his deal?
Feeling kind of sad mom?
Feeling kind of sad?
I can hear this?
She's going, shouldn't I let him up?
I go no?
No, do not let him up?
Yes he's heartbroken right now but if you let him up for saying that now, two weeks from now here's what he'll be doing Judy?
He'll be going, feeling kind of sad mom?
Whoa, whoa, really sad, way down sad, way down?
In the depths of sorrow here?
It'll be a gambit, it'll become a way he manipulates you?
Don't feed this?
Get through this and get to this?
This is what we're looking for?
When they are no longer trying to get out of that chair, they've surrendered?
They're no longer attempting to control the situation, then are we ready to let them up?
No, we're ready to do an assessment to see if they're ready to get up?
And the assessment is some variation on do you wanna get up now?
And what I want is an assent?
It doesn't have to be verbal but it has to be communicated to me, something along the lines of uh-huh?
If I get nothing well that piece of toast isn't toasted yet so to speak?
And we just need to leave them there awhile longer because they are still trying to establish control and I'm taking that from them?
So once they say yes I'd like to get up now, now hugs and kisses, no?
We're not done yet?
So we've taken a commodity, sense of control?
Another commodity, attention?
Another commodity, freedom to do what you want, away from them for an extended period and its value has skyrocketed?
It's not quite heroin but it's on par with heroin?
Are you gonna waste that?
No, so we wanna give the kid a series of one step instructions to follow and deliver the heroin for those instructions and then we're done, then hugs and kisses?
That's a full timeout procedure?
Making use of some of the principles I've talked about so far, especially resistance to extinction?
Here's another one?
So you did, did Greg Hanley talk about bedtime problems here?
Well he, he's terrific?
He's an expert in the area?
I do a little, I'm not an expert in any area?
I just am a dabbler, so I dabble a little bit in bedtime problems?
I do know how to solve bedtime problems which are epidemic level in typically developing children?
49% of all typically developing children, one time or another present in their pediatrician's office in the United States with bedtime problems?
And for kids on the spectrum it's way higher than that?
It's even a worse problem for kids on the spectrum?
So a big deal?
And the way to solve the problem, pretty straightforward?
Straight up extinction, ignore them, close the door?
Don't give them any attention, four or five days problem solved?
That's all there is to it?
So what's the problem?
Nobody will do it?
And they just simply will not do it?
And it doesn't make any sense to try and get them to do something they're not gonna do or make them feel stupid because they're not doing it?
It will solve the problem, they won't do it and I understand why?
Because the mother mostly, sometimes the dad, usually the mom and the child have been working together to create a pattern of behavior that can't be ignored?
By definition 'cause the kid's in that room, trying stuff and a lot of the stuff the kid tried didn't work?
You know, kid's in the room going, lonely?
You know, mom ignores that, that's easy?
Kid goes, nothing to play with in here?
Mom ignores that, no big deal?
But the kid is like I'm choking, mom's in there?
So a kid's like okay, choking works?
Sort of, I mean it's not like that deliberate but like the kid's encoding stuff that works, discarding stuff that doesn't work and eventually what they've got is a little symphony that mom cannot help but respond to?
Then that mother comes to see one of my interns, junior person in the field?
She explains her bedtime problem and the intern says, well just ignore him?
No, there's way more than can be ignored?
So what we do now is we give the kids a bedtime pass and think about this pass as a pass you could give kids for other kinds of things?
So we give them the pass, they're in bed, they get the pass?
They can exchange the pass to have one request satisfied by their parents after bedtime?
They can summon their parents like servants or they can go out and find them like nomads?
They make their request, the request is granted, the pass is surrendered and then we put them in bed and we get very nice results from that 'cause it gives kids I think, a sense of control over the situation and parents like it?
Parents will do this?
Pediatricians will prescribe this?
So here's the acceptability data?
Parents don't like ignoring kids after bedtime, don't like the family bed but they really like the pass?
The pediatricians like the pass too?
So you know, why does it work?
I say sense of control is probably quite a bit?
Or maybe more colloquially, you know the kid's laying in bed, thinking, whoa man I'd sure hate to have the boogeyman come but I had my pass?
Or simple economics because now we're, we're paying kids for unused passes?
So they show up with a pass in the morning they haven't used overnight, they get a treat for that?
Saving it for a rainy day or for if you're, if you have any geek in your blood, I'll give you a geek response?
It's the combination of a DRO and escape extinction?
You combine those two, you don't get an extinction burst in the extinction because of the DRO, the person has a response, a reinforcement option?
So you don't get a burst?
I like the other explanations better but that one fits too?
Or they're saving it for a rainy day?
That sense of control thing, I think that's big?
Like right now overhead there are people flying?
They've got two Xanax or Valium in their purse or their pocket?
They're not taking it, they won't fly without it because they think if turbulence hits, I got my Valium, I got my Xanax, I'm okay to fly?
Take their Valium and Xanax they're not getting on that plane?
It just gives them a sense of control?
Now, think of all the situations where kids really need a sense of control?
You might be able to use a pass for those?
You know they don't wanna go into X?
You tell them here, go into X, take this pass?
If you need to get out of X, just surrender the pass, come back out?
Keep the pass and you can trade it in later for Actually?
You see what I'm, there's a little program you can build?
We talked about exposure and response prevention?
So I think I can skip that?
We talked about quickly, learn non-use?
So this research is highly controversial as is the researcher that conducted it?
His name was Edwin Tom, it was controversial because he used operations on monkeys to create this finding and in the operations, he paralyzed them surgically on one half of their body?
He deafferented them on one half of their body?
Thus creating hemiplegics out of the monkeys?
Obviously very controversial?
What he showed though was that now that he got the half body paralyzed they're using the other body, the other side of the body, matching law would predict that?
You know, this, too much effort over here to get anything done, you can't get it done, you get no carrots that way?
Use this side of the body to get carrots but then he tied this side of the body down, restrained it completely and what he saw was development of this side?
They started to use the paralyzed side of their body and he realized they had learned not to use this side of their body and they weren't completely paralyzed, you see what I'm saying?
And the matching law would predict that they would use this side while they can 'cause it's an easier way to get carrots?
When you can't get carrots using this side then you go for this side 'cause it's the only way you can get carrots?
Now how is that relevant?
You have to fit that into whatever you're working on?
I'll tell you how we use it at Boys Town?
See we get kids from inner city Chicago, inner city New York, inner city L.A?
and they got a set of behaviors that you call street?
They bring a street, that's how they get their carrots using street behavior?
Well that worked for them when they were on the streets but it does not work for them when they come to see us?
They get no carrots for their street stuff?
Now you got another set of behaviors that they didn't use on the street?
Let's call them socially acceptable?
Socially polite, socially gracious behavior?
They have some of that, now maybe not a lot?
But you know, the monkeys didn't have much either on the paralyzed side of their body?
They got some of that and that works exceptionally well in our community?
So what we see in our kids is a dying out of street and a burgeoning of socially appropriate and you'd have to see it to believe it?
I'll just give you a description?
So I work in a clinic at Boys Town that serves the community of Omaha and that means kids that live at home in upper middle class families who have minor behavior problems?
Some of which involves academics, some of which involves a little truancy, some of which involves a little smoking, joking and toking?
Some of which involves a little attitude?
These are problems of the worried well for the most part?
And then my clinic also serves the teenagers who live at Boys Town?
Now these are thugs, thieves, robbers and rapers?
They got this waiting room, they're in there when they're waiting for their appointments?
So you walk in, you look at this population and you see one group of kids is slumped on the chairs, exuding attitude, sagging and bagging?
They got piercings and tattoos?
They got girls have enough makeup on you think they put it on with a paint sprayer?
And their whole demeanor suggests F you?
And then you got another group of kids, they're sitting up straight, they're well dressed, they're well attired?
Their haircut is neatly cut?
They make eye contact, if you sustain the eye contact with them, they stand, come to you and introduce themselves?
Ask you your name, then they ask you a question?
A polite question?
Now you'd think, the second group of kids would be the Omaha kids and the first group of kids would be the thugs, thieves, robbers and rapers?
But it's the other way around?
The first group Of kids are the upper middle class kids that only have minor problems?
The second group of kids are the Boys Town kids who are operating under the circumstances we've set up because we've eliminated their street behavior and we have watered and fertilized their socially graceful behavior?
What about that question that they asked you?
They tuck that away because if they see you again, in a short period of time they're gonna ask you a followup question based on your answer to the question that they asked you?
It's a conversational skill we teach them?
Like if you were to come to dinner at Boys Town?
We often have people come and visit us and go to dinner at one of the homes?
You get to the door, you have no idea how it's gonna go?
You don't know what you're gonna talk about, why did you agree to do this in the first place?
You come in the door, there's six kids, well dressed, a little uncomfortable?
Each of them introduces themselves to you, they ask you a question, each one of them?
Then you sit down at dinner and pretty soon there's a current of conversation swirling into a friendly eddy all around you because it's all about you because they were all trained to ask a followup question based on your answer to the question at the door and that's all the ingredients you need for a nice dinner time conversation?
Just a social skill?
Now put them back on the streets, those behaviors go away?
But while they're with us, they get developed?
They learn not to use what won't produce carrots fundamentally?
Adjunctive behavior, who knows what that is?
Oh the geeks have been working on you guys?
Nobody, those are adjunctive okay?
Adjunctive behavior is behavior that's in the in betweens?
So they have schedules of reinforcement, you probably have heard of that before?
Like a fixed interval schedule of reinforcement like FI20 means they'll use minutes?
That person on that schedules receives reinforcement every 20 minutes regardless?
But what do they do for the 20 minutes?
Because at the end of the interval they have to engage in the behavior to get the reinforcer but what do they do in the meantime?
Whatever they do in the meantime is what they do to fill time, that's what adjunctive behavior is?
It's part of the operation but it isn't part of the reinforcement scheme?
It's what a person does to fill time while they're waiting for reinforcement?
So if you put a rat in a cage, you put him on an FI10 and you put like a wheel in there, they'll run on it while they're between reinforcements?
Do they like running on wheels?
No, it's just all there is to do?
They do what there is to do?
Put wood chips in there, they chew on them and eat them?
Do they like wood chips, no?
It's just all there is to do so they eat wood chips?
Put water in there, they drink it?
Are they thirsty?
Not necessarily, there's nothing else to do but drink water?
Put all that stuff out in the wild, they won't go near it 'cause there's better stuff to do?
But in the cage that's all there is to do, that's what they do?
So in industrialized nations, like the United States for example, 20% of five-year-old children suck their thumbs?
In non-industrialized nations like the Digo Indian tribe for example, 0% of five-year-olds suck their thumbs?
Why aren't the Digo Indian kids sucking their thumbs?
Because genetically they're born without thumbs, nobody can explain it?
No, I'm just trying to make sure you're staying awake with me here, you guys are staying awake right?
In the industrialized nations kids have a lot of in betweens in their life?
Because their caregivers, their parents are out hunting and gathering for food for the table and hunting and gathering for food for their egos and it leaves the kids to fend for themselves and so a lot of kids fill in empty time with self stimulatory behavior but in the Digo Indian tribe, there is no downtime?
The kids have relatively constant skin to skin contact with their caregivers until a late age?
They're in front packs and backpacks during the day?
Everybody sleeps together in a pile at night?
The kid has no need to stimulate him or herself so they don't develop those habits?
You show somebody in the Digo Indian tribe a pacifier, they'd have no idea what you were showing them?
You wanna see a lot of adjunctive behavior, go to the zoo?
'Cause the animals there got nothing to do and all day to do it?
I go to the, go to an old elephant exhibit where they're chained and all the elephant does all day is just shake his head from side to side?
What's over there, ooh nothing?
Well what's over there, nothing?
Oh maybe I'd better check back over here and see if anything showed up, nope nothing?
They would never do that in the wild, ever?
If they did in the wild, none of the elephants would hang around with them?
It's like what's the matter with Fred?
All day long shaking his head from side to side?
Yeah you know what else, the other day I saw him sucking his foot?
It's like ditch Fred?
So, early on it's relatively benign stuff?
Some of the stereotypy there?
Some of the stereotypy that you guys see, fingernail biting, knuckle cracking, body rockings?
Thumb sucking, hair pulling and play, skin picking?
That kind of stuff?
But as kids get older and get more sophisticated, they start filling their time with other stuff that's not as benign?
So pornography, online gambling, actual gambling?
Drug use, alcohol, cigarette smoking?
Those are all time-filling behaviors too?
Those make empty times more interesting?
So I mentioned at Boys Town we don't have any crime, we don't have any of that stuff 'cause our kids have no downtime?
If they're having downtime that means they're asleep?
We fill their time, we know what these kids do with downtime?
We have records of it that are an inch thick and so we don't give them any downtime?
Our kids are up to everything?
They're out for sports, they're off for extracurricular activities?
They have jobs, we fill their time with anything we can because we don't want that kind of stuff to take root?
That's, we don't want adjunctive behavior to take over their lives again?
So, rule-governed behavior, according to Skinner he called it contingency-specifying stimuli?
You know, kind of geeky?
And Steve Hayes calls it behavior under the control of verbal stimuli, kind of geeky?
Let's, let's just say the extent to which language influences behavior, how about that?
That would be rule-governed behavior?
So let me tell you the difference between a rat and a human in this context?
Take a rat, and you put the rat in a maze and put cheese at the end of the maze and the rat negotiates the maze, gets the cheese?
It does that a few times and it's kind of locked in as a behavior?
Then take the cheese away, the rat negotiates the maze a few times, no cheese, gives up?
That's rat behavior?
Take a human being, put them in a maze and put at the end of it their version of cheese?
I don't know what that would be, a promotion or money?
Access to power, whatever their cheese is?
And then they negotiate the maze, they get the cheese?
They do that a few times, kind of locked in?
Then take away their cheese and what happens?
Well they negotiate the maze, find no cheese and then they negotiate the maze and they find no cheese and they negotiate the maze and they find no cheese and then they negotiate the maze and they find no cheese and they negotiate the maze and they find no cheese and they negotiate the maze and they find no cheese and they negotiate the maze and they find no cheese and they negotiate the maze and they find no cheese and they keep negotiating that maze and finding no cheese because that's what their father told them they were supposed to do to get cheese?
They took a course in this and they learned in that course this is how you get cheese?
Upon this principle I cannot stop getting cheese this way because I'm not gonna violate my principle?
I gave my word that I would get cheese this way and I'm gonna continue to get cheese this way until that cheese shows up 'cause I, like that?
We use language to continue on in the presence of broken contingencies, that's fundamentally what a rule is and I mentioned on the front end of our discussion that human beings are largely the architects of their own psychological and emotional suffering and rules are a big source of that suffering?
So let me use the example of a dog in the rain?
So let's say I'm out in the cabin in the woods, outside of Halifax and it's raining cold outside and I got my dog and the dog is curled up in front of the fire?
I am sitting on a couch in front of the fire reading and then for no reason whatsoever I toss the dog out in the rain and I leave him out there for 15 minutes?
And then I let him in?
What does he do?
Well he shakes, then he sniffs and licks my hand and he peeks around me and sees that fire burning, heads on over, twirls a couple of times, lays down in front of the fire, steam coming off his coat?
Couldn't be happier, back in heaven?
Not at all concerned about being thrown outside?
So forget the dog?
Let's say it's me and you?
We're in the cabin in the woods, we're sitting on the couch reading?
It's raining outside and cold and I throw you out for 15 minutes?
And then I let you in?
Right, are you gonna sniff and lick my hand?
No, you would tell that story until your dying day?
Every time you could get anybody to listen, you'd tell them that story and every you told the story you'd get worked up over it?
They'd get worked up too?
And it would color what you thought about men, what you thought about me, what you thought about cabins in the woods, what you thought about rain in the woods for extended periods of time?
Only it's over, it happened, it ended but it didn't end?
What makes it continue?
What makes it continue is that story?
We use these stories to ruin our lives?
And we can let go of the story where the bad stuff happened, then we can face the good stuff that's now happening even though it reminds us of the bad stuff, it's only reminding us, it isn't the bad stuff, it's just a reminder?
Rule-governed behavior is a huge source of suffering for people and one of the questions to ask when people are defying your ability to reason why they're doing X, Y or Z is what is the rule?
Are they operating by?
There might be a rule in there and if so, if you can identify the rule, sometimes you can work with a person so they can see it and have them operate by another rule, sometimes not?
We got this woman that, that eats lunch at Boys Town's cafeteria, it's open to the public?
We got two vats of soup every day and before her, you could have as many bowls of soup as you wanted?
You pay for soup, you can have?
You can eat soup until you throw up?
But what she was doing was one, she'd have multiple bowls of soup and then she'd take cartons, takeout cartons, fill them up and take them home with her?
So now we got a sign that says no takeouts?
So now she sat down and she started eating five, six, seven bowls of soup?
So now it's only one refill and then, she would like spend a long time fishing in the soup for the best stuff with people lining up behind her?
So now they're gonna put a rule in place you can only have so much time to get soup?
All these rules for her are for her but see what she doesn't know is that over in the cafeteria there's a table full of psychologists?
That's people working for me and me?
You know we're sitting there, we're seeing this and we're like, 'cause she's an upper middle class woman?
She's not poor, I know her husband?
We're like what is the rule?
'Cause there's some rule operating there?
There's something in her head that justifies all this and when she's been corrected she thinks the people that corrected her are wrong?
I don't know what it is, I can't divine what it might be but it's interesting when you watch people's behaviors?
Like what rule might be operating in that person's head and if you can divine it, it starts to make sense?
Well this is a, the Achilles heel of behavior analysis?
We just don't sell it very well?
So I got that Maslow hierarchy of needs there because that kind of thing sells itself?
You know, but it's the kind of thing that behavior analysts eschew?
They don't like to talk like that?
And I understand, I mean there's a lot of vacuous stuff in there?
It's hard to pinpoint, hard to operationally define?
So I don't really know what we're talking about but it still is a fun and interesting way to talk and it appeals to people and they're never gonna give it up?
And so, in order to sell what we have to sell?
We've got great stuff, we just don't sell it very well?
We have to use language that does indeed sell?
We can't start, we can't continue to be using words like autoclitic when we're talking to our mother about what we do for a living?
So, I'm always looking for ways to do this?
Let me take a couple of cuts at this, you can think of ways too?
One is I like to work with the concept of faith, with most of the people that I see 'cause they're mostly religious?
And see, what they bring to me is doubt?
You know they doubt their spouse, they doubt their teenager, they doubt their son, they doubt the school system?
They're in doubt and worried and as much as I possibly can I try to correct the problems but what I also need is for them to have some faith in their husband, their son, their daughter, the school system, whatever and they don't?
At least not until I get to work with them a little bit?
So I find out that they're religious and now I know they have a belief system and faith by the way is belief in the presence of doubt?
That's what faith is, it's belief in the presence of doubt?
You don't have faith that two plus two is four, you can prove that mathematically but there are things that you have faith in and that's where you can't know but you have faith anyway?
So like folks will, I'm like do you believe in God?
Yes, do you have any evidence?
Yeah got any evidence, anything you can point to right now that shows me God, God's exist?
Direct evidence, do you have any direct, they got none, they don't have any direct evidence?
So you have faith, you believe in God even in the absence of evidence, yes?
Do you believe in the Resurrection?
Yes, do you have any evidence, no?
But you believe nonetheless, yes?
So you're capable of faith even though you got no evidence?
Do you believe in the transubstantiation, yes if they're Catholic?
Do you have any evidence that that's happened?
Do you have any evidence that that wine is actually turning into blood and that bread is turning into flesh?
Well no, but you believe nonetheless, yes?
Okay so you are capable of believing profound things in the absence of evidence, yes?
Well how much of a leap would it be for you to believe that your son inherently is a decent person even though he lied to get the car?
Could you just bring forth that capacity that you use to believe in these incredible things with no evidence when you have an abundance of evidence that he's a good, decent kid and he did this thing, like I'm using faith, following what I'm saying?
Trying to sell the idea?
I work with kids that wet their beds?
I try to find out what their religion is, 'cause I'm looking for the guardian angel and if they got a religion with a guardian angel I'm gonna use the guardian angel?
So let's say I got a Catholic family, I find out that the kid has a guardian angel?
At least that concept is familiar to the family so then I start talking to the kid?
Okay honey, do you say your prayers and go to bed at night?
Yes I do?
Well, who do you pray to?
Well I pray to God and I pray to the baby Jesus?
Well who do you pray for?
Well I pray for my mommy and daddy and I pray for my brother Bill?
Okay hon, well I want you to do me a favor tonight?
I want you to pray to God and baby Jesus, pray for mom and dad, pray for your brother Bill and I also want you to pray to your guardian angel and I want you to pray to your guardian angel and ask your guardian angel to wake you up if you have to go to the bathroom in that middle of the night?
That way, you won't wet your bed?
Now listen, I'm not talking to him?
I'm talking to her, I'm looking at him?
The words are going to him but I am talking to her because I just gave her the idea that we're gonna strap a urinal arm onto this kid to fix his bedwetting and I gotta package that in something and she doesn't like that idea very well but she's loving this guardian angel stuff?
I am just selling, you follow what I'm saying?
I'm integrating stuff I know that will work to rise the appeal of this technically kind of arid stuff that we have to use?
This is my point about social validity?
We need to sell our wares better than we do?
You'll find yourself in competition with people that use outrageous methods to work with autistic kids?
Don't focus on the methods, focus on the salesmanship?
That's why that it's happening?
They sell better than you and I, that's all?
This idea that you can use, what is it?
Augmented or whatever facilitated communication, I mean who, who wouldn't want that?
I mean the whole idea that there's a self in there behind the enchanted fortress or the frozen fortress and you know, you talk to the parents of autistic kids and they'll tell you he was fine, he was terrific until he was like three and then I just saw the skills die out, like the lights going out in a gym as they're being turned off one by one?
It was the saddest thing I've ever experienced in my life and he saw it, she saw it in there?
They think it's still there?
It just occluded somehow and no, somebody comes along and says I can work with your son and bring that out?
Oh baby, how can you say no to that?
I mean obviously there's no evidence to support it but it sells itself?
Am I making sense here?
I'm back to preaching again aren't I?
Okay, so enough preaching?
Thanks for not taking a break, I wanted to end on time?
So I said something earlier, I'm gonna say it again?
No such thing as a bad boy?
There's no such thing as a bad boy?
Father Flanagan said that and I believe it?
No such thing as a bad boy?
But I do believe there are good people?
There are good people and I am looking at a room full of them?
I'm looking at a room full of good people, people who have decided to take a chunk of their lives and devote it to people less fortunate than themselves?
And this is the only verifiable way to happiness and satisfaction in this lifetime?
The greatest members of our species have shown us this is the way?
Mother Theresa showed us this is the way?
Mahatma Gandhi showed us this is the way?
Martin Luther King showed us this is the way?
Jesus Christ Himself showed us this is the way and now you are on that way?
I don't know how long you're gonna be doing this but to the extent that you do it, you're making the world a better place?
There are such a thing, there is such a thing as good people?
Thank you for letting me be with you today?
I enjoyed myself immensely?
I enjoyed getting to know you to the extent that I did?
Thank you for the work that you do?
I appreciate it very much, thank you?